Navigating Corporate Life

Karon: I think I think it’s a scary thing. And I’ve always been afraid of randomly emailing someone or asking for help. I always felt like it’s me versus the world. So let me do all I can do. myself. I’m not going to ask for help. I think the simplest thing you can do is just ask. People could always say no, there’s no harm in asking for advice.

 [Music]

Zeke: Welcome, everyone to another episode of the Let’s Gather Podcast. I’m your host Zeke.  In this episode, I have a fellow alumni named Karon to speak about her journey in Corporate America. You can listen to the podcast on all major platforms including YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts by clicking the link in description below or going to https://allmylinks.com/letsgatherpod. Please rate five stars I like to give a content warning for any strong language used in this episode. I hope you have a nice day and enjoy the show.  So I like to welcome you and thank you for being a guests on the podcast.

Karon: I’m proud thanks for inviting me, I’m shocked.

Zeke: And like the first question I always ask is, what’s your origin story be?

Karon: Alright, um, so I graduated undergrad in 2006. I thought I wanted to be an actuary. I thought it sounded cool. I felt like oh, there aren’t that many people who are actuaries out there. I’m really interested in risk. I really like statistics. And to be an actuary, you have to go take these actuarial exams? Are these really tough math exams that very few people pass? And so I graduate? I tell my, tell my grandmother at the time, oh, yeah, I’m gonna be an actuary. She’s like, No, you gotta go get a damn job. You got to get a job. And I graduated with this degree in finance and investments from Baruch. And I just go apply for all of these jobs and, and get a job as a financial analyst, that New York Presbyterian Hospital, and I hated it, it was quite cyclical, I had difficulty being in an office I had difficulty sitting in a chair for hours on end. I started in the summertime, I just wanted to go outside and chill and go play basketball, and all these other things. And I left there after about six months, I felt like it wasn’t the right fit. And then I got a job at an insurance analytics company where I get to work on a product team. I thought it was super interesting. And I had the opportunity to learn more about insurance and about risk, something I was really interested in, I had the opportunity to learn about products, how they’re built, and how they’re maintained. And a little bit about product marketing. And it gave me an opportunity to think about where I really want to go in my career. What do I need to learn to get to get there. and things of that nature, it was a great, I call it my first job out of college, it was a great first job. And I was there from 2007 to the beginning of 2011. So I was there throughout the recession, I made pennies I got promoted every year. And I got like this 20 $500 raise, which I thought this was fantastic. But we’re reading in a paper of these people on wall street who are getting bonuses. That are like $100,000. I’m just happy to work. And so while I was working at this insurance analytics company, I decided to get a master’s degree in risk management, something I was really passionate about. It was really great. It helped me really understand what was happening in the market at the time. Anything that Barack Obama signed or put in a law was in my classroom, literally the same day, the next day. And it was there that I realized that I really liked strategy. I really like coming up with envisioning, like a grand vision and coming up with a plan for us to all rally around to build something to build new products, to go through hyper growth in terms of revenue, to acquire companies, and things of that nature. And I said, Oh, I want to be a strategist, those two people make the decisions. I always had this idea that a CEOs job was to spend 90% of his or her time coming up with great ideas and then telling people Oh, make these ideas happen. And so I think my next job was, I got a job at a fin tech company. And I was on this team. And I had the opportunity to truly learn what strategy was, it wasn’t just coming up with an idea and telling a bunch of people to do it and then making it happen. And it was more analytical than that. And I realized that strategy, or those ideas, that’s probably 20% of the effort to making it a reality, or to building a business or growing a business. 80% are people related things, like making sure that the team truly understands what the vision is, what the plan is, making sure that they feel part of that change. And they know what their role is there, and providing a certain level of transparency and developing others, organizing teams or people in a way that makes sense to achieve set vision and set strict strategic plan. And I was like, Okay, wow, I just spent all my time trying to learn how to build a financial model or make a presentation deck. And these really sort of hard skills. And I didn’t spend enough time on soft skills, like how to present in front of a group, how to develop others, and how to communicate really difficult things are really bad news, or even good news. And so I learned that while I was there, through a combination of working at that place, and joining a nonprofit board, I joined a nonprofit board going in with this silly concept that I come up with ideas and people go make them happen. Again, not true. I got on a board, I want to say for for six months into it, they made me the board chair, realize I’m 26 years old, managing or directing people who are a lot older than me, people have a lot more experience life experience. It’s not just work experience. And so between being a between being a board chair, and working at a finance at this FinTech company, I learned what it truly meant to make change on a small level from onboard, and on a larger level to being at a corporation. And I decided, Okay, I need to make sure I put myself in every stressful change situation out there. So the next company I worked at, I said, Oh, I want to you know, do mortgages, I just want to do mergers and acquisitions, because that’s a stressful time, most mergers and most mergers and acquisitions, they fail. So I get a job at this place. And with this whole idea that pretty much hundred percent my job of strategy, building some of those strategy decks and those models to prove that or to support that we should buy this company, or we should partner with this company, or we should go into this geographic market, and things of that nature. I want to say 95% of what we presented to any senior leader with Smackdown Oh, no, we don’t have my, oh, this is great. But I got to truly use strategy frameworks. In a realistic sense. I got to, you know, eat, sleep and breathe, the strategic plans and all those models that you learned in school about SWOT analysis, or nine bucks matrix or Porter’s five forces, etc. And I felt like Oh, man, we’re not really accomplishing anything. But I think this is valuable. This is valuable experience. And so I was ready to leave that place. And something happened. And they laid off my team, the team I was on. They gave us maybe four or five months to find a job. So I would still show up every day. And someone who was who became a mentor of mine, his name is a Loke. He said to me, it’s like cron, you know, you’ve worked in marketing, you’ve worked in product, you’ve worked in strategy. And perhaps you should consider becoming a chief of staff to someone. It would be like, you know, getting an executive MBA, but getting paid to do it. Like you’ll have a better understanding of what leaders think about what keeps them what keeps them up at night. And I remember the first thing I said to him, that sounds easy, it sounds boring. I’m not going to do that. I just did all of this hard work. And I’m not going to go be anyone’s right hand chief of staff. And I thought about it I said, you know, you know sometimes someone who’s older than you are wiser you they give you a piece of advice, maybe I should look into and so I just Okay, if I’m going to be a cheapest app, I’m going to be a chief of staff at a smaller company at a small and midsize company. And so I went out there, I found a role at this marketing analytics startup, it was a late stage startup. And I became in charge of strategic initiatives, and the right hand to this woman who was in charge of the sales and customer success team. And I learned so much from that experience, about how to lead about how to actually transform teams and transform organizations. And it was, it was fantastic. I was like, Oh, I could do this. And then, you know, your chief of staff for you’re typically supposed to be a chief of staff for maybe 18 months. And then he put you into this big role as a GM or something, you know, at the end of 18 months, that didn’t happen for me. We got acquired one year later. And then after we get acquired, I was picked to integrate a bunch of acquisitions that this company had acquired over the last, I’d say, three or four years. And I worked on this reorg for a year. And that was interesting, but not fun, if you could imagine. And then we got acquired again, by a private equity company, and then I got laid off. And I was like, Okay, all right, I got laid off. Okay, cool. Got to figure out, I’m still trying to be this this strategist, you know, leader, whatever. And so my second layoff, and this one was actually an actual layoff, meaning I got laid off, and I was unemployed for a while and bought a house, six months later, I got laid off, then I’m on a job search for a year because I refuse to just take anything. And I was like, Well, I have this idea of what I’m trying to accomplish, and like career wise, and I don’t want to waste other people’s time, and I don’t want to waste my time. And so let me go find something I’m really, really passionate about. And while I had that year off, and this is for a person that has always worked, I’ve always had for the most part two jobs, maybe I work a full time job, and then I’m on a board afterward, I may or maybe I work a full time job. And I’m teaching undergrad or grad grad students, right. And so this is like a break. And I didn’t really know what to do with my time, I started riding a bike, my bicycle outside every day. And I was like, Oh, this is alright, I guess. And I just started volunteering my time for free. So if nonprofits needed a consultant to help them with something and be like, Oh, yeah, me, I can do that. Other for free, no big deal. And I started, yeah, did that I also, I found this kasasa company that I worked for, where I was kind of sort of like a fractional coo. It was a team of seven people. And I’m a, I’m a rum drinker. And kasasa oversimplify as a Brazilian style rum. And I was like, This is cool. I’ve never worked for any company that actually made a physical product, and made pennies. And it was not great. But it was fun. I learned a lot. And then I got what people would consider a real full time job at a very large company that everyone knows. And I took a job there. And it was tough. It wasn’t fun. It was stressful. It was everything that I hate about corporations. Not everything, but a lot of what I hate about corporations, and sort of this top down mentality, and things like that. And I worked there for about six months before I found my next job. And I found the next job. Because I saw it online and I need three people who work there. I knew a board member, I knew a strategic adviser to the CEO. I knew the CEO. And these are three people I had worked with at two companies prior. And you know, I applied online, I emailed them, I was like, I saw this and you’re like, Okay, oh my god crushed me. So excited to work with you. This is a corporate turnaround. This is gonna be great. I was like, Oh, yeah, another risky thing for me to do in terms of change and transformation. And I joined this company in a and I had a and so I was head of corporate strategy. And I was the right hand to the President, then the right hand to the CEO. And I used all of those skills that I had learned over all the useful over the years prior, and to work on some really interesting initiatives to help turn around a company that still hasn’t been turned around, but that’s okay. There have been some some successes. I believe and I think there were some things that I personally as an individual were quite successful at. And I got to work with people that I worked with at a couple of other companies in a different capacity, and also build my net work. And then January came, and I got laid off. And I knew I was getting, I knew it was gonna happen. We had three CEOs that year, and I worked for two out of three. And I knew it was gonna happen, and I was fine with it. Because, as you know, I’ve already been laid off twice since age 30. And I’m 35. So this layoff thing is like, kind of normal. So it’s really always having the focus of always having a resume fresh, which I’ve always had a resume fresh, and being prepared to, for whatever comes next. So always having that Northstar, but what do you want to do current, you know, 10 years or 15 years? And what is the next step? Or what are the next steps you could take to get to that. And so when I think about my origin story, I think a lot of people use this analogy of climbing the ladder. That doesn’t exist, I am sure it exists for some people, but it does not exist for me. Someone described it as a jungle gym. You know, you’re in a jungle gym, like you’re hanging in front you, like you’re, you know, you’re coming in, you’re falling. And that is my career, everything has been a pivot, I have never lost sight of the end goal. But there have been a lot of challenging things that have happened on the way when I think about what advice I would give people is one, don’t think of it as a ladder. Don’t think of it as this linear thing. And when you are when you fall, right, and you when you’re in a jungle gym, you’re hanging, you fall down, you got to get back up, like a mech, American Ninja Warrior. When you fall, like, the most important thing is to get back up. And sometimes it’s really hard. Sometimes you think, oh, man, this is over, my career is over, I’m gonna fail, I’m never going to achieve this goal. And everyone thinks I’m stupid. Or I’m too good for this, you could do all of these emotions, right? that many people go through. But if you’re at the crux of if you’re at the cross section of opportunity, experience and performance, you will achieve great things you may not achieve what you anticipated, but you will achieve great things. So that that is the origin story. in so many words, there are a whole bunch of other things that happen we can get into it. But your questions, clarifications around us?

Zeke: Whoo that was a lot? Yeah.

Karon: Imagine me on an interview and you say, your background like oh, yeah, I worked at these nine companies. I got laid off in time, but it’s okay. Oh, you’re on a side I taught at this school or on the side. I did this. And it’s, it’s, it’s insane. It’s like the first 10 minutes and then they’re like, okay, you have any questions for me? So.

Zeke: And before we get more into like the details, would you represent that in like a book or like a movie or like a docu series.

Karon: And I know, maybe I should, maybe I should do a book or a movie about this, or maybe a show because you know, there’s so much drama and be like a Shonda Rhimes TV show, you know, I’m gonna write that down, figure out who’s like me, who’s gonna play the 20 managers I’ve had in my life. Just gonna play my mom and my mom was gonna be played by Vivica Fox. I know that for sure. Definitely.

Zeke: Yeah, you got to be you have to make a nice director and like right into dramatize it. And then it’s already dropped.

Karon: Actually, when I think about it if you ever saw a precious right and you know how she she daydreams a lot and in a film there moments where she’s daydreaming about these great things I think it would be like that like stuff is like I wasn’t beat down my you know, Monique was cussing me out but stuff is happening in your crazy things you just like Wow, I can’t believe it. Oh, and then she survived this and blah blah, blah. But in the midst of it are these like flashbacks or just total daydreaming? Because I do Daydream in the midst of all of this. So that will make it a real you know, it would make it a drama per se would it make it like a drama at some go for drumming says

Zeke: All in the beginning about how you say to your grandmother I want to be actuary, she was like get a job. I’m just like when when you try to speak from someone from this generation, they like don’t understand what’s going on, like, what’s the new, like new field. They’re like, I don’t understand that. And then they say do what’s normal, I guess?

Karon: Yeah, I don’t understand the question.

Zeke: So the question, I think, I think I was just talking, I was reacting to how your grand mother said to get a job. When you said, I want the actuary.

Karon: Yeah, I think this is, um, I understand where she was coming from. My family’s thing is, and I’m sure this is a lot of people’s families. But for some reason, I feel like it might be a lot of you know, people of color families, you go to college to get a job. After you finish college, go get a job, I did not raise you to be a professional student, I did not raise you to sit up in my house, and use all of my utilities eat up all of my food. And so therefore Keren get a job. And in my mind, I’m like, Well, you know, like, I’m trying to accomplish this great thing where you don’t understand this thing I’m trying to accomplish. I don’t care, Karon, get a job. And so it was, it was just like, I just remember just going on indeed.com applying to everything that said, one year of experience or something like that. And I had a finance degree. So anything that’s a finance degree, like, apply, apply, apply, apply, apply. And every time I would go on an interview, and it would say, Well, I get the first round, I get the second round and the last run in it, they get to this question, I kept messing up my answer. I kept telling the truth. That’s the problem. What are you passionate about? What do you what do you want to see yourself long term? What do you want to do? And I was like, Oh, I want to be an actuary. Now, realist, I’m not applying for a job as an expert. I’m applying for a job as a blink analysts put in a word analysts. And the first time I answered that question differently, I got the job. It is, it is one of those things, I think, especially early in your career, like the first job, or the second job when he asked you, you know, what do you aspire to be? To some degree is best to say, I’m not sure. But these things I’m interested in, or if the job is related to what you want to do, say, oh, like, if it’s a marketing drug, I want to be a CMO one day, you know, 15 years from now. And so then he could see the path and be like, cool. I’m not wasting my time with this person. And it is, it’s funny, because honestly, most people most not everyone, but most people, especially at the age, they don’t know what they want to do. And there are lots of experiences that they’ll have over time, which may change that. We only have so much information. Like I would say I didn’t know what a corporate strategist or management consulting, or management consultant did when I was in college, I thought that they just made decks. I was like, PowerPoint, what? I don’t make PowerPoints. Or like, you don’t know, I don’t know, I didn’t know what a CFO did in college, I thought, okay, they just make sure the bills get paid. And so by having more experience by meeting more people who do these different things, and having more experiences at corporations, or other types of businesses to truly understand what these people do, or what people’s roles are in the grand scheme, in the grand scheme of things, you get a better idea of which one to do. So yeah, I did, I didn’t get a job. And after 5, 5 to 6 months before that ended, but it’s okay, because I had two jobs. I was running a basketball tournament, honest, sad. And so when I left the hospital, um, I still had stuff to do. And then I want to say two weeks later, I got a job that it was interesting. And I worked at that next place for three and a half years. So your mother said to you get a job. We after you graduated, get a job.

Zeke: Yes, it was that and get my master’s which I’m still fighting against. Because I’ve been going to school since I was three I am exhausted in the last two years of college is a lot going on out there and I need a break from everything.

Karon: And yeah, you should just get it if you can. Get a Master’s get into something you really want to do. Yeah. just wasting your time and your money and other people’s time. And then your mom is definitely going to say you have a Master’s degree. So now you better go get yourself a real good job. Not just any job. Well, good job. I don’t know your mother. But that’s how my mother was.

Zeke: Because I was like, if I get my master’s, what’s the plan? I don’t have a plan. So I went to I went to college, without a plan that’s how I changed my major twice. And then I like right now I was like, I don’t know what I’m doing just kind of moving. We can meet again, I finished with digital marketing, for accounting to CIS to marketing.

Karon: And why did you pick the marketing?

Zeke: That was junior year when I was first semester, I was pretty much failing on Python to CIS. And then I was like, before the midterm seemed that I wasn’t gonna do well come on, like the homework was hard for me and then the pretest was hard. And then the professor was like the pretest, so the actual test is harder than the pretest. So me being a person who thinks ahead, I was like, my minor is new media arts. I like designing. So why as well to do marketing, I have two different skills when I graduate. Then I spoke to myself, spoke to my friend. We were both doing the pretest. He was ahead of me. And I was like, I’m still on the first question.I was like this is not going to workout. So what was my next step? I talked to my counselor then talk to my mom. And I got zero in the midterm and then change a major.

Karon: Cool, see, you pivoted, you’re already learning.

Zeke: Cuz this I was like nope. Now my mom, is like just get a just get a job with a 401k plan. So I have some type of health insurance, because so many things is I need you have health insurance. Okay.

Karon: See how it’s evolving? She’s getting desperate. I mean, you know, if, when I went to Baruch to talk to you guys, in February, in a room of 30 people, I said, one thing I try to do is anytime someone emails me on LinkedIn and says Quran, I have a question about this, can you connect me to this person, I need help with this, I take, I respond to the email, and I get on the phone or on the zoom or whatever, and meet the person in a room of 30 people. Three people contacted me. Three, you had a third now you almost didn’t contact me up until a week or so ago. So it’s two. And I guarantee you if I was connected with all 30 of those people, the ones that didn’t graduate yet, they’re probably like, Oh my god, I gotta get a job. I don’t know, oh, this is crazy. Man, this COVID thing, man, or like, Oh, you know? Or like, I need help with this. Or I’m trying to start a business or one of those things. Guess what? I was just in a room with 30 people. And I said, hit me up on LinkedIn. People hit me up on LinkedIn regularly. I had to make five introductions, this, like in the last 24 hours for people. And so zekiel when you need help, you already know my email address my phone number, you know, baronne live in. So yeah, yeah. You’ll figure it out .Yeah, it just it takes it takes

Zeke: With that speaking about how to what is like the best way for people to speak to like to connect with um professionals? Because I know as a student, I was like, I don’t really have much to offer. Like, what can I? What do I do?

Karon: I think I think it’s a scary thing. And I’ve always been afraid of randomly emailing someone. or asking for help. I always felt like it’s me versus the world. So let me do all I can do myself. I’m not going to ask for help. I think the simplest thing you can do is just ask. People could always say no, there’s no harm in asking for advice. And what do other people get out of it? It depends on who you’re asking. And what some people get out of it is just one helping someone like doing like, just Doing something out of the goodness of their heart for whatever the reason is, just because someone was bold enough to ask them for help. Or because they are connected or have a connection to that person in some sort of way, like you and I both graduated from group. Sometimes people like to really help people, woman may want to help other woman, some people are immigrants might want to help other people who are immigrants. And so sometimes it’s people are actually seeking to help people who may have a similar experience or background to them. Or sometimes people just want to do that you’re in your heart, it doesn’t matter. But you just need to sort of be brave. And in this ask, I also think the people who are professionals, they should also just ask, I think like, Oh, yeah, like, I’ve been in meetings with people, I can’t, you know, cry, and I really want to help young woman and I’m like, okay, just do it. I just saw like, five young woman sitting outside your office, or, you know, I really want to help people from my community, some thinking about, I don’t know how to do that. And like, well, there are lots of nonprofits that help various types of communities, you can be part of that if you want. It just depends on how formal people want to do it. But yeah, just ask just that people could say no, people could ignore your LinkedIn, email, or your text or your phone call. So you’re gonna just go ask some people like, Is this like a thing that you’re going to do now that you know that you just go ask people stuff?

Zeke: Following this, like, hey, it sounds like just work or in general?

Karon: In general.

Zeke: Oh, yeah. It turns out the parking was mainly also accident. People I don’t know, eventually. And save more branch out and everything. But it turns out, like, professional work. Yeah, that’d be I’ll definitely have like more of a plan because that’s usually my weakness. So they just play things out. I’m just more surprised who just does things. They like cool. What’s next? Got it? Yeah.

Karon: That’s fair. We have a we have a we’re starting from a certain point. I’ll email you about it in like six months and be like, yo, Zeke. You hit some people up yet? Yeah, fosho.

Zeke: Like, give me the list, or the,

Karon: List no. Like, alright, I trust is a trust trust relationship, I trust that you tell me the truth.

Zeke: So then, the fat and loose so you pretty much had to like me, always had a pivot in where I want to use, like, how to be a bit like yourself, and your goal. goes, I want to do this, but then you’re like, let me see what this is. Right?

All Yeah. Yeah.

Zeke: I was like, how is that? And like, how did you come to that decision? Or to say?

Karon: Yes, so as people I have to, I don’t have to. But in many cases, sometimes I have to experience something to know if I really liked it, or I really don’t like it. So when I think about the Northstar, I want to say, five or six years ago, I was like, I changed my career goal. So five or six years ago, I was like, Oh, I want to be a chief strategy officer. I want to set the vision. And then I was reading a lot, I started reading a lot about activist investors. And I started reading a lot about conscious capitalism. And all of these have it in corporate governance and these things. And I said to myself, well, I think I want to be a board member corporate board member one day, because that’s probably the best place where I could sort of, you know, you build, you know, you set the strategic direction of a company, and you select or build out a leadership team to achieve that direction. And then you get to some of your financing elements skills and make sure you have enough resources, whether those are financial resources, or people resources to support said, direction and vision. And so when I thought about this, well, what skills do I need to achieve that in working backwards? It was strategy skills, it was financial skills, it was leadership skills, organizational skills. And so as I’ve had different roles, I’ve tried to acquire those people. skills. So when it came to pivoting, it was more. So I have a role at a company. And I just get into everything. So if I was on the marketing team, I’d make sure I was also working with the sales team and the product team, and the finance team, the technology team to learn about, well, what do they do? And how did they do? What did they do? And how does it all connect together? And can I work on a project with you? And can I work on a project with you? Or can I work extra work extra time to do this, or sometimes I would come up with new ideas that, oh, we should have, we should go into this market, or we should come up with this product. And then I end up leading a cross functional initiative. Right. And so I tried to make, I tried to make the role more than what it was more than what it was on paper. I just tried to make the most out of the experience. And people, for the most part, were always happy to share their time with me. And the experiences. People always want to volunteer to do some work for them. Or to do some of their work, you know. And so it was mutually beneficial. And so then when it actually having to pivot, meaning like going to a new company, or going in a new industry, or doing a different function, I had some of the experience that appealed to that. So when it comes to me going from marketing, strategy, or strategy to product, I had I gained experience in it. And so when I would have these interviews, I’d say, Oh, yeah, I’m on a marketing team. But I definitely did product. I did product management. And then I wrote specs and admin tested stuff. And then I did go to market and things like that. So this sort of started to make sense. When it came to changing industries. I would say, Oh, yeah, I worked in fin tech. However, there’s a lot. The skills that I got in fin tech are transferable to Mar tech. Like I we build products and FinTech, you build products and Mar tech, like it’s not different. When it came to changing, like, let’s say levels, so sometimes, sometimes I would get a job at a new company and my level be higher, sometimes it’d be lower. It was jungle gym, again, I would say, you know, well, I have the leadership skills, or I have the management skills. And here are examples of when I’ve been a manager or UCS manager, management skills, here are examples when I’ve been a leader. And when I’m use these skills. Here are examples of when I worked at a company when we’re focused on growth, meaning just top line. Examples weren’t, I was working at a company that was turned around, I was just focused on. And so all of these stories, and I probably have so many stories, more than many more than most people who have worked as long as I’ve had. But because I have this this toolbox of stories and experiences, I’m sort of able to say, Oh, yeah, I could do that next job. Oh, yeah, I could work at this place. And sometimes it resonates with people. And sometimes they’re just like, you’re confused, you have no clue what you want to do. I know exactly what I want to do. Don’t tell me what I but sometimes it comes across that way in it. And that goes, and to some degree, that’s my fault. Depending on how I communicate it, I have to be able to communicate very clearly that these two or three things are relevant to this role, or this opportunity. And that’s what makes me great. Is that answer your question?

Zeke: Yeah. Also this thing about how like, symbolism similar to that I have a various role, like various experiences of roles and how they may look like just confusion, because I see. So I was texts as textile devs and marketing styles to graphic designers all over the place where they kind of just need that to figure out who you are letting the pieces. Yeah, exactly.

Karon: So for example, let’s say, let’s say tomorrow, you applied for a role. And I was like a social media manager, something like oh, Social Media Manager I know about social media. Let me tell you the social media platforms and I know Facebook, this one boom, hey, I even know HubSpot. So I can manage your whole social, social media management for you. I have my own podcast. I went from zero to 1000 members is over this period of time, I could run this whole thing for you, gosh, then let’s say the next row someone asked you about, let’s say they’re like, oh, what about marketing operations marketing operations associate or something like that. And this is this is the person who runs the website, who does? Who measures how many people are coming to the site, that kind of stuff. You say, Oh, well, I have my own podcasts and my own website. And I manage all of those using these particular tools. And yes, I check my metrics. And I understand, you know, impressions and conversions and all this other stuff, right. So now, you have all these hodgepodge of experiences, but you’re just picking and choosing these, what are social picking and choosing this, this goes to marketing operations, etc. And just honing in on the two or three fine points as to what will make you awesome for this. And maybe you get the job, maybe you don’t knows. We’re trying. Everyone goes to school with one guy or gal that talks a lot. It makes it seem like they know everything, or they know about everything. And then you start peeling back the layers, you realize that they’re bullshitting you. And some of those people who are really good talkers, you could only bullshit for so long in life, but what they really are good at, is telling a story. And that’s something that we all have to learn how to tell a story how to sell ourselves. And you know, just communicate what makes us special. It is hard, and I’ll be honest with you, it’s taken me a long time to get to this point, I’ve had to really, really practice or put myself in very tough situations to to get better at.

Zeke: With the tough situation. She’s also told the story of how you want to challenge yourself. What makes you want to challenge yourself, and not like to stay with your comfort, or what you was used to?

Karon: I learned nothing out of being comfortable. I learned nothing out of status quo. being uncomfortable is very comfortable for me. strange to say it. So I really like change. I really like moving forward. And so I sort of seek out these challenges. If someone says something is impossible, or no, we can’t do this, or that thing is risky. I’m like, I want to do it, I want to do it. I gotta do I gotta do I gotta know. And it’s a strange thing for someone who is always really interested in strategic risk and risk management, to go seek out. I’m going to seek out the risk and a challenge. Because I want to understand, well, how can we get over this thing? How can we solve for this? How can we potentially make a risk or that uncertainty part of our competitive advantage? And it wasn’t, it’s, it’s like that woke up one day. And I decided to do this. So if you if you went to high school with me, you say Oh, Quran, she’s, she’s pretty shy. She does everything that she’s supposed to do. Like the teacher said, This is due by this day, I will have it done early. If If someone says this is the opinion you should have on this, I would have that opinion. I’d say until I was 21 years old. I didn’t even pick out my clothes for school every day. Literally, my aunt on Sunday would say take out all the outfits and she would pick some outfits. Oh my God, this shorts, iron all of your clothes on Sunday. The crease in the pants. I had to wear a skirt at least one day a week. Oh my god. I mean, we’re skirting with a softball. And everything was very sort of regimen, spoofing, do these things. And it got to a point where something happened where actually what happened was they found that I was gay. And I was like, and that’s a whole nother story. We got a whole session about that. And I felt like they left me hanging just like I was the enemy. And it got to the point where Okay, Karan that you can’t put the opinions of others above your own happiness or your own thoughts. I didn’t have any thoughts. Stay RIDGID everything is very Oh, this has to be rational. This connects to this. And to some degree, I’m still like that. But now I formulated some thoughts and opinions. Because I know the choice, because people are like asking, oh, Chrome, what do you think about this? Like? Well, I don’t know. Or I would give an opinion of what my family would answer, like, what my heart would answer my grip. And so you got to point once I started having opinions, that was the worst thing that could have happened, because then I became confidence like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. When I think about going on my phone, researching everything. Oh, yeah, this is just, I have now I have opinions, picking up my own clothes. You know how awkward that was for like, the first couple of years. I was not mentioned half at a time, my mother when she would see me she, you know, she, she remembers my days of not matching so much. When I got married, she said if karate she told my what, if Quran is not matching, it is your fault. Because like, You got to be kidding me. Yeah, it took it took a long time to find the right clothes, to formulate opinion to cut my hair. Um, it’s just there’s so many great things that come with confidence. I think when people when you’re young, and in your teens, and even sometimes people in your 20s and sometimes people go beyond that they haven’t experienced as much by themselves. And they’re not being their authentic self. And so it takes it takes time. But when people become confident they’re dangerous. competence is dangerous. Not to be confused with arrogance, because I feel like there’s like a meter. It’s like, we’re talking about feeling confident. It’s like oh, yep, yep, yep, yep. Yep. And then if you go past that’s arrogance. That’s not good.

Zeke: I do go to arrogance sometimes, which causes overconfidence to myself. None will be whatever. gonna happen. Yeah, doing thing, which is learning and doing things. I get that.

Karon: Yeah. So yeah, now now, I love it. I can’t help myself. I got to do it. Anytime I want to say no to something I say yes. I was gonna say no to this thing. I was like, why do I want to have a video out there? Me in a world talking about the last 10 or 12 or whatever years of my life? And then I was like,

Zeke: I guess we got to say yes. Thank you.

Karon: (Inaudible). It wasn’t. No because of you.

Zeke: Yeah.

Karon: I’m an introvert. I really don’t want the video out there.

Zeke: It could be audio bass.

Karon: It’s okay. I know that it’s fine. I have to get over it. Who knows? Maybe one day I have to speak in front of 10s of thousands of people and I’d be like, I come back to this. Oh, when I was talking to Zeke on this podcast. That was that was harder than talk. He helped prepare me for that moment.

Zeke: Yeah, I had that feeling when I was joining FemCode which is a female technology club in Baruch and I was like, I’m a guy before I knocked in the door and I goes like what people are going to thinking, and I was just do it.

Karon: Just do it do, what happened?

Zeke: Pretty much became the treasure.

Karon: See diversity matters.

Zeke: Yeah. It was like what you’re doing today because I was helping them get chartered to be a club, he was like, so why he joined the club? Because you know tech because at that time I was a cis major. I was like it’s nice to meet other people in that major.

Karon: That’s cool. That’s funny.

Zeke: Let’s say I was scared. I was like, should I join? Yes. That makes some great friends.

Karon: He joined a women’s group. Ah boy that’s funny. What are some of the your other questions. I had the list, but I can’t find it.

Zeke: Yeah. Oh, also go off the top of my head um

Karon: It’s fine.

Zeke: Oh, this one is about like us working during the recession. And they will control Corona. How’s that been?

Karon: Um, it kind of sort of the same in a strange way. When I was working during the Great Recession my friend my really good friend and I we did not make a lot. We had only been out of school for a year or two. And cuz we didn’t make a lot but because it was a recession, a lot of things were cheap. Remember, they have these recession specials. If you’d be able to get you’d be able to go to restaurants. You could really afford before then, or go to different events. I can’t tell you how many places I went to, was just free pizza. But they had comedy or free hotdogs. They had karaoke. It was. To some degree it was, it was good to have an opportunity to actually experience the city. I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, my really good friend group in Staten Island, we went to Baruch being in a city was a big a big thing. And you know, we’re going to Baruch and we don’t really have money. So then we graduate, and we have a couple of dollars, and you have a job, recession. And so it was interesting. I also lived in Manhattan at some point, I want to say, in 2009, and 10, I was dating someone. And she had an apartment in Manhattan, she was a residential director at NYU, in their dorms are awesome. And so that was my girlfriend, and I lived there with her. And so I was living in a real sort of sex in a city lifestyle on a real cheap, broke, level not carry level. And so what’s cool is that when I think about it, now, I’m like, well, this is this is really tough. It’s really tough being in a house a lot. But technically, thanks to the extra $600 Well, thanks to the severance I got from the company and my bonus and all that other stuff, plus the thousand dollars from you know, the government for what seemed it seemed like it would never end but it did end, I made the same amount. I still had some way to live, I still had food, I still hang out with my friends on house party, the house party, I spent a lot of time with my wife, we have a dog. I’ve done like, I’ve spent my time like doing gardening and woodworking and like riding my bike. So to some degree, it’s still tough because you know that there’s something beyond you that is affecting the entire country, the entire world again, um, but you try to be thankful for the little things in the small moments that you have. And so I think that’s what’s similar. Yeah, I’m unemployed, but wasn’t, wasn’t too worried about finding a job because I felt like I would find a job. And I started a job next week, and it’d be great.

Zeke: Things just work out.

Karon: I know, I found out three weeks.

Zeke: Okay. That’s cool. I remember, recession. I was 10. So I was like, Okay, cool. I’m just going to focus on schoolwork. And now this like, this is where as a were feeling.

Karon: If you when you start at a moment when it’s really difficult, or you see other people who have very difficult situations, you may not take you, you may take less for granted. You know, you may make different decisions going forward. I think when we used to read these articles about millennials, and you know, I’ve always been this millennial and these older people say, Oh, these millennials. Oh, peran these millennials, Papa, papa, right. And I remember, it was right around the eight 910 1112 or whatever. We’ve been talking about millennials forever, but right around the time they were like they’re so entitled. And this is when we had Occupy Wall Street and I was working downtown Manhattan at an office, and I could see the Occupy Wall Streeters and people, some of the people work with me who were not millennials who are older, they would say, Oh, look, these millennials, they’re so entitled. They went and got master’s degrees in poetry, and they think they’re going to be poets. They, you know, like they’re entitled, they think every everything should be handed to them. And they’re demanding all of these things. They’re not organized by all this Bs, right. And it was, it was this interesting dynamic, because I remember they were saying this and he had Occupy Wall Street in Manhattan. And it was mostly it wasn’t a diverse group of people. It was mostly white people. There weren’t many people of color out there with the tents and chillin. And they decided that they were going to have an Occupy Wall Street moment at Broadway junction train station, you know, the one I’m talking about with that. And see and eltra Yeah, there. And he went there. And they had this news reporter go. And they were like, Well, why do you think the movement isn’t that big here? Right here? at Broadway junction, they’re like three of you three, four or five of us stand up here. And today, we stop people and ask them well, why are you so good? Well, I am, you know, I believe in what they’re doing. But I have to go to work. If I don’t go to work, my daughter right here, she won’t eat. If I’m going to work, I will be able to pay my rent. Yeah, I’m a millennial, but I don’t, I don’t have the luxury to not do these things that need to happen on a day to day basis. And all these people that they were talking to were people of color. Because you’re a bro we judge it. And for me, it went to show, it proved the fact that when I was growing up, it wasn’t you do all of these things like you go get a diploma, and then you go get a degree and then go to get another degree and then you’re going to get a job in that thing that you got a degree in it. No one said that, to me, it was crying me crying, you have to work twice as hard. And you may still not accomplish the goals that you set out for it. So at no point was, was the any level of entitlement. And I think that’s a common thing for people of color people who grow up in lower incomes, or people from certain, or maybe even people who immigrated here it is it’s difficult to take some of these things for granted. I tell people all the time, yeah, I have. I have two degrees. But that doesn’t mean I was guaranteed to be a vice president at a company one day, it doesn’t mean I was guaranteed to teach undergraduate students or graduate students one day, or to be a board chair at 27. Like, no thing, guaranteed, because I got a degree. I’ve worked at places where I was the only black person, literally the only black person in office. I’ve worked at places where you if anyone was queer, I didn’t know it. It wasn’t obvious. I’ve been in meetings where Me, Myself and my boss were the only woman in the meeting. And trust me, my bosses, every time I’ve had a female manager, one of the most senior people. So none of that is guaranteed, and none of my managers ever made anything seem like it was guaranteed. Um, and so you really have to grind. You really, you really have to grind. You really have to pivot and Miss asking people for help them is something we have to get over this fear of people saying no, something we have to get over this, this idea of entitlement. I’m sure there are lots of people who feel entitled to things I know I don’t. And whenever people work with me, I’m making no like, just because you want to serve some school. But just because your dad is this person, whatever. Just because you did that thing. That does not mean that I am that I have to give you something. We all have to work. If you’re my team, you got to work period. So I hope that answers the question. But yeah, none of this is guaranteed. I hope that our elders the previous generations now understand millennials a little better because now we’re older. And yet and I’m sorry to wax poetic for like five minutes.

Zeke: No, I was like that, because everything. No matter how good somebody is, though, we have to work hard for it. Because what you call it hard work beats natural talent.

Karon: It’s actually work smart. Yeah, telling people. You know, just work work smart.

Zeke: You got to choose your battles. Oh, yeah. On the side note, I showed your comments to my mom for her episodes, and she likes them a lot. She like oh my god.

Karon: Yes, like talking to my mom. It was like she’s getting a business. Nice about it because she’s on camera. Yeah. Different if the camera wasn’t this I’m sure you walk around with a camera, all the cameras.

Zeke: In the episode that we have to take things out. I’m just like, you’re the most difficult guests I have because I had to keep editing.

Karon: Yeah, I think Thank you mom had some good comments, things that resonated with me. Like she said things she was talking to you about. She’s She just really wanted you to go to get a degree and have more than what she you know what she had and do better. And it was in a very authentic way, like she was telling the truth. It’s, it’s not like, she wasn’t asking you to pursue anything in particular. And that was nice. And I’m sure you’ve met people, and they tell the truth, and you get to be a doctor and account. And that’s it, I don’t want you to know where she was just saying, I want you to be able to do enough to take care of yourself. You don’t have to take care of me. And it’s like,

Zeke: But she did told me not to be an accountant.

Karon: Hey, hey, you aren’t gonna do it anyway.

Zeke: You can’t actually me. So are you sure you won’t be an accountant. And I was like, you only actually me because you don’t want me to do it. You know, my opinion for a lot of things.

Karon: Nobody’s perfect. Every time I get laid off, my mother tells me well for the city, the city job because if you work for the city, you wouldn’t be laid off. And I’m just like, whatever. And she’s like, he’s just like, You’re crazy. I don’t even know how you could go through this. And she’s like, hey, so this is only the second time I’ve been unemployed, meaning like, had to go file for unemployment or whatever. I remember last time this happened. She says to me. Yeah, maybe you should consider applying for food stamps. I was like, nah. I’m not eligible. To help. No, the government is not going to help me. Because I made whatever the number is 35,000 and $20,000. And I think that number is too low. And she’s like, yeah, I think you should work for the city. And my mother is a she’s worked for the Department of Ed for 27 years. So working at a corporation, this whole concept of layoffs is she couldn’t get it. She’s like, This is crazy. Corporation, she just doesn’t understand. She’s like, I don’t know why anybody would go through this. It’s like, it’s worth it. One day, I’m gonna be a board member and be making decisions. I write and I’m gonna be able to maybe I’ll buy you something. Maybe I cut you off with a little piece. Not a couple apologies. Okay. And she’s like, whatever. She was like, You was just on a board and you had to pay to be in it. I was like, so works.

Zeke: Like, they don’t see the bigger picture yet. It’s gonna come.

Karon: Like, you don’t need a bigger picture. Yeah, she doesn’t. I’m bringing her along slowly. But surely.

Zeke: It with my mom she was, definitely just school first, with even like fter school program, it was fun she would not let me do it. She would take me out, like you going home. Like in high school, I had the us. We had tutoring then I went to tutoring, because in middle school. Citizen School, we had like a (inaudible) school, do our homework and then you do like activity like programming or um like skateboarding stuff like that. For the first year, I was in it. The second year  she took me out she said you get one day. In the last year she took me out. When I get the high school she was, like tutoring, yeah, you can go every day.

Karon: I get it, I get it. They have their own experiences and that to some degree dictates to do or not to do it. And get it Yeah, I wouldn’t be a good teacher of little kids at all. I’m impatient. And I like to play I’d be sitting here like playing video games. They would not do well.

Zeke: And also over my grandmother, before she died, she was like, um, dying wishes like go get my master’s which is like, no. You also will be disappointed.

Karon: Might not need it. Maybe Maybe. I don’t know. If you do it. There’s something you’re really interested in passionate about.

Zeke: Funny to see that most parents are the same.

Karon: Yes, most parents are the same. Yeah, they all they all care about their children. I think generally speaking, they all have opinions. They want to you know, mentor you. It’s not really mentor. It’s like, it’s like, pull your arm.

Zeke: Just like keep going this way. Just keep pushing.

Karon: I think they all went. I think all parents are most parents, they all want what’s good for the children and want them to be happy and stuff like that. It’s just how they communicate these things. For us, it’s just like, crazy.

Zeke: Like, I understand. That’s not gonna work for me.

Karon: Yeah, it’s crazy. You have to think you have to start at some point, you’ll have more proof points as to what you’re doing or what you were focused on. How it how it’s been working. So my, my, my little sister, she’s 27. And when she was going to went to hunter when she was going to Hunter, my mother was adamant that she graduate on time. Meaning graduate in four years, she went to temple for like a semester or a year or something like that didn’t trust the hunter, and some of the credits transfer some of them. And she was adamant about she graduate on time, and that she don’t work. Right. So you got to focus on school. So I remember my sister was a senior and Aster. Mosquito, that’s what a color is something called as a kid crushes so annoying like a mosquito species, my sister says sis Kido. Mosquito, I’m your internship yet? Or did you? You know, are you trying this pop up? She’s like, No, mom doesn’t want me to work. She don’t understand. I was like, um, give me We won’t do your resume. I’m gonna apply for you. A or whatever. And I’m gonna talk to mom, we just gonna do it. So, um, we do it. I think I applied to three jobs for her. After fix her resume and told my mom, I was like, I know you don’t want to do this, but I did it. So one of these three places color, you know, so me. The whole point of going to school is to, you know, have the knowledge and experiences and all that other good stuff to do something you’re passionate about later, right? I’m always like, I’m gonna tough at it. No, she got to go to school and just not work and focus on that. Because I heard great, so good. Are you great, so good that you all let it it was all it was like about it doesn’t matter. Got to get her internship. So then my sister got smart. And she was a guidance counselor. Her guidance counselor guidance counselors, like, told my mom No, she she had an internship because even if she graduates for 4.0, that doesn’t mean there’s no guarantee that she’s going to get a job. And so my mother was like, Okay, I guess, I guess. But you still have to take at least five classes a semester. She got, she got an internship. At this. Well, she got two callbacks. So the three places we applied, she killed the interviews, she got offers to both one paid with one was paid one was one wasn’t paid, she had she took the pay position is great. She worked there for the summer. And then like, through the fall, and through the spring into she graduated, they gave her a full time job. Um, and so she worked, I think for four years total or something like that. And then my mother was really happy. She’s like, all right, okay. Now I understand. Now I understand. I’m like, thank God, that was your legacy. This, this would have been too many conversations like, so yeah, she had this job. And she did this. And she did well, she got promoted. Once she got raises a couple of times, and all these other things, all of these experiences. She saved the vast majority of her money. I told her Listen, don’t ever move out of here. Oh, bother this place. Oh, no, like stay as long as you want. And that’s your bet. So she said cash and going on vacations. And she is one of the best Instagrams I’ve ever seen in my life. It’s a little wack now because of COVID. But prior to this awesome. And then she went out there when she was looking when she decided to leave that place because she felt like she wasn’t learning enough. She went to another company. And she went to this other company and she got an offer. And she called me when I was at work to help you negotiate this offer, but I didn’t answer because I was at work. She negotiated her own offer, right. And I think she practically doubled their salary is something crazy like that. So she went through a lot. So by doing this thing, the first time that somehow she was able to do all of these things right and accomplish really these things and learn so much. And I remember when she was leaving the company and she was looking for another job. She didn’t have Tell my mother, cuz we already know how he’s gonna react. Why leaving a good job posting? Well? Why would those people treated you nice? They gave you a MacBook at work, and iPhone, or whatever, silly stuff like that because she just does not understand. And my sister’s telling my mother story yet they gave me an offer. I don’t really like that offer, I’m gonna call Kay Kay, you have to do some negotiation. And my mother was my mother, my mom like, No, don’t do that. Because then they’re gonna take your offer. a welder says, No, we need equal pay. But we need you know, you need to get paid equal, you need to get paid first, then you can fight for some equal pay. And they gave her the VIN number that she wanted. And it was like, I cannot believe they’ve been this little kid. This amount of money. And they were not impressed by it. They were just like, these kids trying to get fired. She tried to be like our sister and lose jobs. I was so proud of her for one, realizing she wasn’t gonna learning any stuff, this place, applying for another job, doing her resume going through the interview process, negotiating her own salary, and all these other things. I was like, Oh, crap, Oh, man. I was like, oh. But and so now my mother could say, Oh, yeah, I’m so proud of my sister. Like, she’s so proud of my little sister. She’s like, and she says this to everyone. But she’s great. Oh, you know, she negotiated. Okay. And also that she is so proud of her, but my mother could not see he cannot see it, she cannot see, which was trying to come to connect, see what what that meant. It was like if you get something, be happy that you got that little thing. That little thing, but you know, be happy that you did that you got that thing. And so sometimes you’ve gone down the right path. And somebody, it could be friends, family, whoever. They kind of psych you out. They might not really know I’m not saying to ignore what they’re saying. Take with their things seriously. But try not to lose sight of yourself and what you really want to do in life in the midst of it. And then when stuff happens, stop blowing up the AI so in six months or 12 months, when you got your 401 k healthcare you just sit at your mama house chillin, a whole closet full of sneakers and stuff like that. You gotta be like, Man remember when he was telling me Yeah, I’m doing big things right now. Okay, I got you on the groceries but I’ll have to rent money your mother good What a boy you don’t read we know he’s doing stuff and you making some dollars so this is good. He could take care of himself. So I’m proud of that. This is this is step one. This is what I was going for.

Zeke: Going to start taking credit for things you did was already there for you.

Karon: At birth that boy look at looking at that.

Zeke: Cuz she was she finally came around with a podcast when she was just like, Oh, I like this. This is like therapy I like this.

Karon: Buddy. Yeah. It’s so hard to convince.

Zeke: Like the parent. Yeah, they they don’t see like, they still see you as like a child who didn’t do much and then we get older though. Hmm. It takes a lot for them to like, get it has always just been about safety is always on.

Karon: Yeah, it takes it takes. It takes it takes a lot. Agreed. But you’ll get there. She’ll be proud. You’ll be able to laugh at those moments. Because you got them all recorded anyway. My memory is you see what you said to me. Now what?

Zeke: She wanted me to take she was like take your time with college that I did for yourself. there early. Okay. I had no choice financial aid.

Karon: To some degree like you were saying you were going to school since you were three years old. That’s how I felt I was like hey, and I’ve been up in this penitentiary with my mom is the warden and my honor my grandma’s the warden. From when I could talk a hold the pencil to 8.1 town come back here.

Zeke: I gotta finish this quick. But good grandma to my mom when she pushed him in school he got he saw him too early. He’ll be tired. When you go

Karon: Yeah, it’s it’s strange grad school is different at least I think I think grad school is different and once you’ve worked a little bit like you’ve done a couple of different things, you feel differently about school hilarious going to work is going to school to in my mind because you’re learning.

Zeke: My mom was always like, even still like I’m still expanding the pocket but I just built a website for it. So we found months and then she was like, Huh, thank you so long the transcripts the episode show scripts, okay. So to me like, else I got sick in the middle of it. Don’t start in March. And then I got I built the website. I bought the frame and then I got sick and then also I don’t know how it goes I was also learning.

Karon: Hold on a second what you build your website on?

Zeke: I used um Dreamweaver,

Karon: Dreamweaver why didn’t you use Squarespace?

Zeke: Uh, I

Karon: A website builder, WordPress.

Zeke: I think we might ego. I was like, and then we do it this way. And then I’m always like, now do yourself. woefully I saw that I did it myself. Because she’s always like, anytime I need help. Ever since I was younger, she was like, Oh, no, do yourself. But I need help with a video game. And they actually want my cousin she was like, now do yourself. a do it yourself. Don’t ask for help.

Karon: I know theres books written on it.

Zeke: For the shows I did later on, I told her those easily, easily go into the hallway. I was like You told me to. And then later the same night show they now do the hardware. Okay, whatever. What else is on your mind? doesn’t mind this, expanding this thinking? Trying to figure out what to do. This is new territory for me with this thing. I’m still trying to get a wrap around my head, I’m an adult. And then that fell in the women leadership decisions. And I dislike people who look up towards me to make decisions. I’m just like, I forget that, you know, I had a job that would job. I’m like, Oh, wait, I then made a decision. And it’s like, Okay.

Karon: What is challenging about that? Is it that you have to make the decision or that people are looking to you? Or that you you’re afraid to make a decision or you don’t know how like, like,

Zeke: I think it’s more of like, granted I’m an older brothers and my little brother. They always say, like, always had to be the type of leader to the boys, because I’m the oldest, but there’s more than what other people are always afraid to mess up. Not because like, afraid of something more like I don’t know, I don’t want to like let them down. Like the people look up to me, because this isn’t me now. And now is wild like, is getting used to being that person who makes the decisions more like it’s an economy. Like, like this, I’m sorry, I was so used to having like, listen to somebody else, or having somebody else on like, Alright, this is the person in charge, and the list of all ago. And now you say it’s like, when you realize how old you are like, Oh, wait, now I’m in that position?

Karon: Yeah, um, yeah, that that goes back to the confidence thing we were talking about a little earlier. Like, as you make more decisions, you understand, it’s just, you gotta gotta go through it. Yeah. And I also I could also resonate with making decisions and feeling like, and, and, and being the role model for your siblings. And that’s always tough, because you feel like if you do something wrong, and my little brother and my little sister is going to do it, and I don’t want them to do that. Don’t think that this did or So yeah, I think that’s a natural thing. But I think over time, the fact that you minimally see yourself as a role model to them. I think it’s a good thing. So then when you make decisions, you recognize that you’re acting or thinking about more than just yourself. per se, and that, and there are cases where that could be a good thing. And in cases where that could be a concerning thing, if you’re just doing every thing for them, or just making decisions 100% for that person.

Zeke: Yeah,definitely.

Karon: Um (inaudible) questions. How has the job field changed over time? What did you mean by that question?

Zeke: Tell us more of like, Who’s I know that? Oh, well, in terms of like people working, I never know how more people work in shorter time, short amount of times. And we’re in jobs, and see how your story, how a lot of people you in similar how you will work in place, and you leave and go to another place and all that stuff?

Karon: Yeah, so I think there’s a few things. I think the prior generations were used to working a stable job, right? for a long period of time. They grew up in a time where competition wasn’t as fierce among corporations. a time where you can be okay, with single digit growth. a time where corporations invested a lot more money back into people in innovation. And things think what’s happened is because the one thing is those things have changed. layoffs are very common thing. Very common. They’re very common in financial services, they’re very common, and marketing and advertising, they’re very common in tech. But they’re a lot more common now. One, so on that in to what corporations spend their money on, whether it’s, you know, spending more money on hiring or hiring more people, or paying people more, or giving them more perks or training them or whatever, or innovation, or acquisitions, that kind of thing, or buybacks or whatever, that that’s different. And thirdly, our parents told us, we could accomplish whatever we wanted to accomplish in life and go after our passions, and they created this, this, you know, army of passionate people. And so, on one hand, it’s like, many of us want to do something we’re really passionate about, I’m really interested in. And we there have been so many movies, over our lifetimes that have displayed that test, there been so many sort of startups that have come from that passion. So that’s, that’s one of why some some people, workplaces short period of time the job, as they call it, and then on the other end, it’s already these layoffs, the recession getting graduated 2006 to 2010 11, during that period of time, and then anybody who graduates this year, and for the next two years, or however long however long The situation is, it’s man, it’s not working. It’s not like my mom and the dad, I can’t work at this place forever. So I don’t think that people want to jump up, I have never really had the goal of and I’m only going to work here for a year. I’m only gonna work here for two years. So to some degree, the decision was made for me in a couple of layoffs, you know, whatever left, yes, but what I had left that month in that day, no, because I wouldn’t have left to let them another job. Um, so yeah, I just think there are two ends of the spectrum. I’ve met people who are my age, who have worked at companies for 1014 years, and I’m like, What is that? Like? Seriously? One of my best friends, he’s worked at this company for 14 years. Um, luckily, because he’s not a great interviewer because he’s mad to you like, Yo, what’s up, you know, his jobs cool. I guess I work here, kind of guy. He’s really successful and he’s a smart person. Also, the last company I worked at, there were a lot of people my age who that was their bid intern there and They worked after school and had worked there for 10 1214 years, and they grew up there. And I’ve never worked. As opposed to me who I’ve, when I start on Monday at this next place, it’d be the ninth or 10th company I’ve worked at. And so yeah, that is to say, I don’t think that we, as people are younger people are doing this on purpose and mass so much. I think we want the same thing as the prior generation, we want some level of security. But we want to be passionate about what we’re doing. And we don’t want to be taken advantage of.

Zeke: Yeah, so yeah. Job, he’s just doesn’t happen too often in my lifetime.

Karon: Well, they say they’re, I think, every 10 or 12 years or something like that, typically small corrections in the economy. And we just happen to hit a big one and oh, eight 910. And technically, the economy is doing well, if you remove COVID. They do happen to watch. Or at least when they happen, they’re substantial. But this didn’t this. This is, um, this is nature, not nurture, like me. I don’t think we didn’t do we didn’t bring it over to ourself. But there are things that we did to make it not so bad or make it worse, pending on who you talk to and how you see it. So yeah, I just, I think this is Mother Nature’s trying to tell us get your shit together. Otherwise, you ain’t gonna have nothing to fight about. That’s how I’ve been taking.

Zeke: Yeah, definitely, if you can make it to this. Pretty much. You have the skill set to make it all resilient to make it to anything.

Karon: That’s fair. You can make it this. Colby, racism, unemployment. Anything like Oh, COVID is COVID and unemployment, those two are easy. I think your last question was, um, what lessons do I have? have I learned? Um, and I think I mentioned this one rapper. One is, you’re smarter than you realize. I think sometimes we get into different environments, people aren’t used to working at corporations or doing nine, you know, like, you’re going to school most of your life, right? You get any situations, and sometimes you feel like you might you shouldn’t be there, maybe you feel a sense of imposter syndrome. Maybe you feel overwhelmed. Maybe you feel like you’re not smart enough? Are you gonna keep going? No. And sometimes you have people that work at companies for a long time. Or even people work at the company for a short period of time to think that they’re not good enough to go anywhere to work at another place. And I would say to all of these people, you’re smarter than you realize. You actually don’t recognize how much you know, until you meet other people, or work in different environments, or are in different environments. So that’s, that’s one thing. And the second thing is, don’t limit yourself to what your manager or what your company could do for you. I, so I’ve been in situations where, you know, you have will say, well, we’re at career path management, what are our career paths where we’re going is no room for growth. Tell me what your plan is. and management will say, it’s not what they say. It’s how they say what they say, Oh, it’s up to you. And I like it and people get upset. They’re like, What do you mean, it’s up to me, I’m working here. Even kid on my career, my career path. If you open up your mind, the fact that you have a goal in mind of what you want to accomplish in life, right. Then, and, and you open it up beyond the corporation. If you work at or beyond the manager that you work for, you will accomplish so many more things. Realize I’m sitting at a place in a marketing role. And I said, Oh, I want to be a strategist. And I’m like, Okay, well, what does that mean? Oh, I need to learn more about mergers and acquisitions, I need to know more about strategy frameworks, I need to learn more about leading, I need to become a better communicator, when I said to myself, Oh, I need to become a better communicator. I said, Okay, you know what, maybe I should go be an adjunct professor, for undergrads, and teach a bunch of undergraduate students something because if I’m able to teach, then I’m able to communicate, my manager wouldn’t ever gave me that opportunity, or told me to do that. It was something I had to come up with myself. And in doing that outside of work, it helped me in my job. When it came to learning strategy frameworks, I just started using them at work woke up one day, boom, check it out. Here’s my Porter’s five forces manager, boom. And in many cases, they were consultants. And so they would know how to use them. And they know if I was doing it right or wrong, and they wouldn’t teach me how to do it. When it came to these kinds of a leap, ship, like I want opportunity to lead actually leading up, but it was, oh, I think it should be leading Oh, you know, what, I’m gonna go find a nonprofit board to be on write something that I’m interested in, and being a board member as being a leader, and then I’m there and I’m sitting there, then boom, I’m the board chair. So then I learned now Was I a great teacher was I agree board chair was a great strategy frameworks. I’ll be honest with you, the first time I did it, probably the first couple of weeks. So the first couple of months, I probably was questionable. But I got better over time. Because I was super dedicated to it. And it is those experiences that helped me get to that point of being a corporate strategist, and leading corporate strategy, and leading change and transformation. and stuff like that, if I would have limited limited myself to what my manager and my company could do for me, I’d be working at the first company that I worked at. And I’d have to wait for my manager to teach me these things, I’d have to wait for him to retire or die for me to manage the team. I’d have to wait for them his boss to retire or die for me to didn’t lead the organization. I had the cross my fingers, that these people, you know, would think that I was a leader would think that I was smart enough or capable enough to do the job. So yeah, the second thing, don’t limit yourself to what your manager, don’t limit the ideas to what your manager your company can do for you, you should still ask them and push them for certain things that are reasonable, right. But you should also look beyond that. The third thing is, and this is specific to people of color. Um women, people who are queer people with disabilities, whether they’re physical disabilities or mental disabilities, you know, all of these groups of people, the world is afraid of what you can accomplish or what you will accomplish. Don’t let those things about you, stop you. Or Stop, stop your light from shining in so many ways. in so many words. I think we get overwhelmed when we’re reading books or statistics or watching TV and they’re like in a court in corporate America. Oh, this person thinks I can’t accomplish this thing. This person thinks that I’m incapable of doing this or doing that. And all that jazz. Guess what? They may think that they may, it may hurt you, it may hurt your career, they’re hurt, hurt your relationship with that person, but don’t see this as Oh, they they don’t think that you’re good enough. See this tape. But turn this around. They’re afraid of what you will accomplish. They’re afraid of what you can accomplish, trust me. And if you start to think that way, you will perform better right because that thing of oh they don’t think I’m smart enough is gonna is gonna help you become arrogant and you don’t want to be arrogant. You want to be confident and you will open up your mind to all the things that you that you’re that you’re capable of doing that to not limiting yourself to what your manager in your company could do f those people. you’re capable of this good indeed calm a child boom. Director marketing pipe up, go get your master’s degree or whatever, go get a certificate, go teach some kids go volunteer, do this, whatever the world is afraid of what you can accomplish, because if you could accomplish stuff, and feel like you are less than, then God knows what you could accomplish. If you if you never had to think about it, if you on the same level, it would be scary. You’d be I’d be afraid of all these people, if they thought this. And so yeah, those are, those are my three lessons that I’ve learned over time.

Zeke: But I definitely see how a lot of people it gives to limit themselves to what their what they see. Like, (inaudible) they don’t know, how smart they are. Cuz I this is within takes a total take outside forces breaking down our own internal connections to somebody else.

Karon: Yeah, yeah, and I’m not saying that there aren’t things outside that are hurting people, I’m just saying that I own this thing. I was the last few companies that have been, I’ve been in, in a leadership role. My peers have been very senior people, C level executives, etc. And one thing that happens is when we go on these like road shows, so like if you know, my boss is a CEO, the CEO, whoever they are, and then we’re going to visit other offices where there are people that might have met, and I do these presentations, or facilitate discussions or whatever. People always want to ask me my age. And it’s not the young people they don’t know, they don’t hear. But if, like, if I’m a vice president, their senior vice president, my boss is a C, whatever, we’re in a room, we have this conversation. And then you know, as you know, after the meeting, you know, you have a lot of chatter tell you a crow. Where you from, but okay, you know. So yeah, we’re, wherever you work for, like, how did you get this role and questions like these? And how do you notice and I’m just like, and I know they’re getting to this, they’re getting to a few things. But minimally, we’re just for the purpose of this conversation, we’re just going to say age, perceived ages, today, we’re going to do this. The other things we’ll put put aside. And what I do is I’m like, Oh, yeah, you know, I’m, whatever, ah, I’ve done this before. I’ve done this thousands of times, whatever it is. Because I want to directly address the fact that they have an opinion of me, based off of what I look like, in this case, we’re going to say, perhaps, is age to be nice. And it’s interesting, because anytime, at least the last few years, anytime I’ve ever been in one of these rooms, at always been given the opportunity to talk. And I’ve taken the opportunity to speak up. And it’s because I believe in these three things. That it is easy for me to do so. And I don’t particularly care about if people don’t believe me, or don’t trust my opinions because of something out of my control. Ah, for example. And I think I think it has worked, I think it has helped me sort of gain a lot of respect, just in general, from other people, because they’re like, okay, she’s confident. She knows what she’s talking about. He’s listening. She’s not being psyched up. And so yeah, it is I’ve had the alcohol into the luxury, the luxury to be in these in the rooms with some very senior people. I’ve had the luxury of being in the boys club at a few companies that was always fun and scary all at the same time. I’ve had the luxury to be in some spaces where there aren’t as many people who look like me in those spaces, whether they’re people of color people or queer woman or people who are millennials quite honestly, it’s kind of crazy. Every a lot of people in the meetings are like they don’t know, the prior generations.

Zeke: So yeah. Is it (inaudible).

Karon: Yep. Cool. All right. Okay.

Zeke: Last question

Karon:  Been great. Yeah. Last question.

Zeke: What would you name your origin story?

Karon: Oh, man, this was on one of those little cards. Yeah, those party. Um, you know, I wish I would have wrote it down because when I said it, my friend was like, Oh, that’s fire. Me that let’s see. Hmm. For some reason song names keep coming to my mind. Like started from the bottom? Um, I’m not you’re not I’m not supposed to be here. Um, stuff like that. I think I would say the and the incredible story. Oh, huh. The un incredible story of someone who is ordinary, something like that. Some play on words, some funky play on like, an incredible in, you know, incredible and incredible, whatever, something like that. Um, because I think it is. And I think I’ve really taken this for granted for a while and something I didn’t realize two, maybe a year and a half two years ago, that statistically speaking, I shouldn’t statistically speaking, there should be few people where I’m at who looked like me, or who came from where I came from, or whatever. And to just say that, even though those are the steps, those steps do not represent what you’re capable of doing. So you should have gave me a question before I would have had it. Great. To drop the mic on.

Zeke: Yeah, this is fun.

Karon: Oh, this is fun. Let me know when you’re gonna post this

Zeke: Because either late October or early November have a look at the timeline of the weeks

Karon: All right, yeah, just let me know it’d be a fun and funny. So it’ll work the place I was gonna work it for like two or three months by then and so I’ll be able to have a good a good laugh.

Zeke: I like to thank you for coming on the podcast.

Karon: Thank you so much. If you need any more speakers, just, you know, ask you know and ask me whatever. All right.

Zeke: You too. That brings another episode of the Let’s Gather Podcast to a close. I would like to thank Karon for being a guest on the podcast. For next week a friend of mine named Gemise to speak about her experience as a teacher. I hope you continue to have a nice day, and hope to see you there.

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