Art Direction with a Art Director

Patrick: I mean, you got, like you said, you got to find out the language that you can speak and not everybody can do everything. And I would even encourage people that, hey, you shouldn’t want to do everything. Because when you do everything you kind of do everything at like the same level. You want to find like what you’re really good at and be like this good.

[Music]

Zeke: I’d like to welcome everyone to another episode of the Let’s Gather Podcast. I’m your host Zeke. In this episode, I have my friend Patrick to speak about his journey in being an art director. I like to give a content warning for any strong language used in this episode. I hope you have a nice day, and enjoy the show.

Zeke:  So much. Thank you for coming on the podcast.

Patrick:  Yeah, thank you for having me.

Zeke:  No problem. And the first question to ask is, would your auditory be and I would like to represent it.

Patrick: Say that again?

Zeke: What would your origin story be and how you’d like to represent it?

Patrick: So I didn’t get the first part,

Zeke:  Your origin story.

Patrick: My origin story? Yeah. Um, so you mean professionally or like, as a human being,

Zeke:  It could be human beings, especially your story. Okay. Um,

Patrick:  I think both in both senses, they, they, they are pretty, pretty different of where I currently am. So I’m originally from El Salvador. And when you think of El Salvador, you you don’t think America, or like the United States, or any of like, the values and you know, the successes. And I’m also an art director. And when, again, when you think oh, Salvador, they, they don’t traditionally consider the arts to be a career. And I didn’t either when I was growing up, but various things happened, I would consider. I would consider a lot of what happened in my life, a series of fortunate events. Things that I never, I never thought would happen to get me here. And it’s one of those is one of those Scary, scary things that you don’t know how they’re going to turn out. For example, my stepdad came into my life. And he was very, very adamant about, about studying and languages and growing up as best as you could just from an academic point of view, so that you had the best chance of life the moment that you graduated. And if it wasn’t for him, I wouldn’t be here where I am, as a human being, because he he really helped out a morally, values and all that. And then professionals professionally, because of all the things that my stepdad, you know, instilled in me. Later in life, when I wanted to do more, more arts related studies, it was much easier to, to go for it when you had the confidence, you know, that somebody actually believed in you, which tended to be the opposite of everybody back at home. Like he was he, because he didn’t have the values for him there. It was very different. So that’s a very long winded way of saying that my origin story does not match my origin. If I had been in El Salvador, I would have probably been, you know, some accountant, only knowing Spanish. Doing doing the basic things that we do down there. But now it’s completely different. I live in New York, I work as an art director. And it’s a lot more fun than how it would have probably been. So hope that answers it.

Zeke:  Yeah. And how to represent a book movie TV show?

Patrick:  Say it again,

Zeke:  How would like to represent it?

Patrick:  Oh, God, um, I would much rather have it I would love to see a video game but there’s no fun in that story. But, uh, I would love it a book honestly. I think I think it would be too picky with who would be my actor. And I also love the fact that uh, that, that writing Can Can, can have that. They say this a lot, which I think it’s a little pretentious, but like theater of the mind where you can actually Say whatever you want, and people make up their own assumptions. But it’s also nice because people feel a little bit more engaged because they’re filling in the gaps on their own. And also, although I am an art, I don’t particularly like it still and I do spend a lot of time writing. Because it’s, it’s, it’s easier for me to to get ideas down. Heck, I would love I would I would actually like writing out the story. So yeah, a book.

Zeke:  Right. So, you know, same as you are the art director, what really clicked for you in the art scene? You know, you say it wasn’t like that in the beginning?

Patrick:  Well, I didn’t really delve into it too much. But I actually hated art when I was a kid. Well, there were two things that had to do with art. In in, in school, for the most part, we did fine arts. And I didn’t particularly enjoy it just because I just wasn’t very good at it. And I did practice it a lot. I was never good with color, I’m still not good with color. But in I think it wasn’t in like the early high school years. The school had a new class called technology lit. That’s literally what they call it. very vague, but what we essentially did was isometric drawings of things. So cubes, trapped pieces, anything, kind of like what you would have for 3d models, where you can see like the front side, that side view that top view and then like a perspective view, right. And while everybody who was in the fine arts class hated that, that that section of the class because we did it only once a semester, sorry, we did one one trimester out of the the other three, um, I loved it. And I guess to me, it was a it was like, I understood it, I finally understood it. Like I finally understood a part of design that made sense to me. It was it was weird, because I hated math. And I hated science. I didn’t hate them. I just didn’t particularly enjoy them. Because there was a very specific answer every time and it didn’t feel like there was a chance to like explore, it was just like, find it. But while visa least technology classes were very much art, they still had an answer, which I understood. And I don’t know, like I just felt they had more control. And like there was there was much more of a of an ending to things. It’s weird. It was the only thing I actually like, I enjoyed it so much. I got so far ahead. And the little handbook that we had to do by the end of the trimester, that the professor was like, if you want to help people around, do it. And this was like two weeks into like a six week thing. I was done. And then I got so bored, I started, I started, which I got called out for doing my friend’s homework for quick cash. Because I would do it really quickly. It didn’t turn out too well. But it was fun. And then later on, when I found out that there was something like this in graphic design. I kind of just fell into it. I did a pre college course at Parsons when I was still in high school, and then just loved it. So it’s not i’m not necessarily in graphic design. I’m an art direction. But later on, I did study more user experience for my bachelor’s, which was much much closer to that technology class I took. And although I am in our direction, I do UX still on the side and my previous jobs have been in user experience. So you could probably say that I finally found something I loved. That’s actually one of the reasons why I still have rulers back there. It’s and I still love just working with stuff.

Zeke:  So nice. So say once you’ve taught the language that you able to speak, in terms of like designer,

Patrick:  I did, um, it was so I know like as a creative you want to um You want to have like the freedom to do everything, right? I’m not like that. I, I will, I can make something pretty from scratch. It’ll just take me longer than other people who are better. It won’t be the best thing in the world. But I love I love I love the planning. And it’s a different kind of planning when you’re doing a painting or you know, a drawing versus when you’re doing something like a blueprint. It’s a lot of like, like you like when you’re doing like those technology draws. There’s isometric drawings or like a wireframe, for example, for a website you are giving. How do I say it, you’re giving a visual to this planning, of like, where things will be like you’re organizing things in a visual way? Um, and I know someone’s gonna say, yeah, you kind of do the same when you like, sketch out the head, and the body and everything. But to be it’s a different language that I just don’t understand. It’s like code. I don’t understand it. I can read it. I just can never write it. It’s the same thing with like, fine art. I can do it. I’m just not very good at it. But when it comes to like, planning and, you know, drawing out a structure, I really get it. Just weird.

Zeke:  It be like that sometimes.

Patrick:  Yeah, I mean, you got like you said, you got to find out the language that you can speak and not everybody can do everything. And I would even encourage people that, hey, you shouldn’t want to do everything. Because when you do everything you kind of do everything at like the same level. You want to find like what you’re really good at and be like this good.

Zeke:  Like, you had, you’re able to do everything but you have that one specialty that really gets you farther ahead.

Patrick:  Yeah, like definitely try out other stuff. Because I read this somewhere. I forgot what it was. You wanna you want to know enough about everything? To be dangerous at it. But not like get boxed into it?

Zeke:  Yeah, I know a little about a lot of things like I have a conversation. And I have seen it already. But yeah, I can speak to you about it.

Patrick:  Yeah. Makes you much more interesting, too.

Zeke:  But did you want to show yours and I want to show why. No, exactly. going on. Sorry. The people who like did you watch the (inaudible) though? I know exactly what’s going on. I know. Yeah. Like I go back when I mentioned door the door on competition. I was like, Well, I’m in charge of the team. But you guys are leaving everything. So that you guys have any more Australian? Yes. Oh, she’s okay. Cool.

Patrick:  Oh, you mean when we did the we did the project years ago?

Zeke:  Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick:  God that was forever ago. It’s still complete.

Zeke:  I like design a but these people know what they’re doing. So I’m gonna let them charge. Yeah. So like, so now your in art direction. How do you explain that to somebody um art direction?

Patrick:  So to to like normal people who are not in design, it’s easy. I basically say I come up with ideas for campaigns. That’s the easy one. When you’re when you’re talking to other creatives, so like graphic designers, my best friend is in 3d modeling. And then other other people who who are creative creatives that in their field, they have an art director title. You tell them that you’re an art director and they’re like, Whoa, you’re a director title. You’re so high up there, you have a team under you. And I’m like, No, I’m actually not that high up there. I kind of just started that’s the title that they give to do the art people. Um, and in they just get so surprised. Cuz I don’t know if other fields that have like a director title in the very beginning. But it’s essentially a a role where all you really do is set the look of a brand of the company Have a new thing, right. And then once you have that, that the direction set, you work with other people to help you bring that idea to life, the, you know, developers or other graphic designers or their art directors. Um, you also work with a copywriter, usually who helps you set the tone for it, not just the visuals, but like the words that you would use the language that you would use and all that. Um, and it’s, it’s a, it’s a pretty cool role, because you do a lot of coming up with ideas of things that would be you know, cool to, to see as a, as a normal person just interacting, trying to make ad advertising less boring. And make it so that people don’t want to automatically press the skip button. And, and, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s pretty fun. It’s also really interesting, because, um, same with some of the other fields of graphic design, you work with brands to help them figure out who the heck they are. What do they stand for? What do they do, what do they want to do? And how they, they they position themselves in the world to, to, you know, put their money where their mouth is. So it’s really cool. That they guess I would basically be it. It’s actually very simple to normal people to other other creatives. It’s like, Whoa, no, no, it’s not that exciting.

Zeke:  It’s like, I’m normal, just like you want.

Patrick:  Yeah, no, actually, like, I just do art. I will, that’s the other thing I’m compared to some of the more creative roles like graphic design, you spend a lot of time just doodling. And coming up with concepts, that not you’re not always executing or making stuff look pretty, it’s a lot of it’s a lot of a planning as if you were like planning a painting, for example. Um, which is probably part of the reason why I’m not very good at it.

Zeke:  So with that, Okay, last question about art direction right? Now, how is it like, coming up with new ideas. So remember, we did a competition, it was like, everything’s been done. What’s next.

Patrick:  Um, I feel like the worst person to answer this because I don’t get it myself. So in advertising, the way that they believe ideas come off is um, you you have to, you have to come up with what they call a big idea or a platform, which is like the the, the core messaging that the brand wants to send out, like, just do it from Nike, every one of the executions that they do is around that right? Or you’re not you when you’re hungry that Snickers then every one of the campaigns is basically based around that. And the what you’re what you want to do when you’re coming up with an idea, especially for a new brand is to come up with a really interesting big idea that can you know, last years and you can up and you can come up with a really fun stuff for it, right? Um, so the way that you come up with that is, you know, research, finding out what makes the brand truly different, especially in fields where it’s like, the, where every bit of research sounds like the competition like people love soda, you could say that for every one of them. You can only really say that everybody knows what a what a what a Coke is without even using the whole name or like that Coke is probably the most popular brand right? So you kind of have to find out what that edge is competitively and then you know, work with strategist, talk to people and find out what how they actually feel about the brand. Also, there’s an ambulance going on outside let me know if you hear it. And then once you find that like very interesting take which requires a lot of concept and coming up with it. And usually what you do is that you present the idea along with a sketch and some headlines just to get the idea across and then once you get that, then you start working on like, How does it look? What is the tone. And then if it’s good enough, then a client adopts it. And then as you come up with stuff, you want to come up with new things that to your point have never been done before. What What, what, what helps is having a creative director who actually knows everything that’s going on, because I’ve actually pitched a couple of things that it’s like, oh, somebody did something like that before. And I’m like, Oh, cool. I don’t pay attention, good thing you do. And then there’s a bunch of different techniques that, that you should be thinking about. There’s a couple of books that I could show you later. That are encouraging people to think outside the box. But also a something that my my, my mentor says, especially when it comes to digital design, like apps and websites, and it’s that everything has been done before. Everything one way or another, all you got to figure out is what makes your version of it interesting enough, or different enough that it warrants existing. So I would say that, even if you come up with an idea that Oh, that has been done before, everything has been done before, just figure out how to make it better. are vague, sorry.

Zeke:  They finally you in that um idea? Did you have,

Patrick:  Like, like, what are you bringing into that idea that makes it really fun. And it’s a it’s a headache process, because you just have to come up with a lot of things. But also lean into, like, what you enjoy and what makes you you know, unique as a creative and try to do that, like I try I try to do a lot of game inspired things. too, they, they don’t usually see the light of day. But they do they do they do sound interesting, um, and sometimes we do discuss them. But that’s that that’s my strength, and that that’s where I’m going to try and you know, push things

Zeke:  And, like your ideas, when they don’t work what you do to make them work. Like rewrite them?

Patrick:  I cry a lot. I mean, so I Gosh, so I am actually very, very quick to kill the baby. Like, I am not gonna love an idea so much that I stick to it forever. I’ve actually, I’ve actually gone up to creative directors during a review, where, and I hate some creative directors because they go, Oh, I don’t know, maybe we do this, maybe we don’t, it’s it’s gonna survive. I don’t know, especially when the deadlines are very tight. And a couple weeks ago, I went up to a couple of creative directors when we were reviewing ideas. And I went, Okay, are we gonna do this or not? I don’t want to waste your time. I don’t want to waste my time. And this sounds like it’s gonna require a lot of work and we don’t have that. So do we kill it? Or do we keep it and they were like what, like very surprised usually people want to keep their ideas and usually people don’t, you know, question the higher ups but I understand that some ideas are you know, good from the very beginning. And some of them require more work but sometimes you just don’t have the time and I get it. The other thing is that like as a as a lower level person, I would like to be told usually the the managers take forever to give feedback to you and you’re you’re coming up with like multiple ways of how something could could be fixed to your point to make a better I’m just to find out later that your idea died. And I don’t know if it’s, you know, the political correctness of including everybody, but sometimes it’s just better to call the baby ugly and just kill it. But it’s doesn’t always happen. So it really depends if, if the idea can be saved or if not, I think it’s more important to know if the idea is worth moving forward with. And it kind of goes back to, you know, be nice to, to, I think it’s really important to have a creative director like somebody higher up that you know, you trust and you have an open conversation with, because it makes it much, much easier to to have those conversations. Especially if they believe that the idea can move forward, they can better help you out. There’s some higher ups that will just tell you, okay, fix it. And then you’re just sitting there like a, how, yeah, like, where, how, what do I do? What’s the direction, you’re just telling me fix it? And that means nothing. I had I had another creative director, I’m throwing so many people under the bus, but he hated my design, like, hated it completely. And I said, Okay, okay. Do you have 15 minutes to talk about this, because this was all through email, you have 15 minutes to talk about this and see if we can figure it out. He didn’t respond to like three days later. And he goes, Yeah, I’m actually not on your project. So I cannot build my my time to it. So I’m not going to help you. I’m just sitting there. Like, you told me this sucks. And you cannot give me feedback. Because you’re not in the project. Even though we’re in the same company and doing work together. We should we should be helping each other. But I see how it is.

Zeke:  That’d be awesome to see. And then.

Patrick:  Yeah, it also kills me because I really believe in nurturing and educating people. A lot of mentoring, but some people just they just want to get the job done or only do stuff that will benefit them. Or make them look good.

Zeke:  So yes, yeah. Almost all fields. Curious people into our hands. You need a synergy to make things work. Yeah,

Patrick:  It’s hard. You just got to find people that you vibe with and a job you vibe with? And you’re not always going to find it early. It might take you a couple jobs, but you find it eventually, I believe,

Zeke:  I hope. Right? Yeah, eventually find a job. Yeah. So with art direction, just more to the planning. And then thinkers talk to the stupid changes basically becomes a executed plan.

Patrick:  Yeah, I mean, it’s a lot of just idea thinking. And a lot of a lot of planning I’m, I actually get a lot more exposure to some of the higher up things and some of my other friends is because my, my team is smaller than others. So but but it is essentially it essentially boils down to that just like coming up with ideas, executing them and sending them out to the world.

Zeke:  When you bring somebody over, you just don’t know, how do you get past the new stuff?

Patrick:  Um, I just take a break, honestly. When it comes to brainstorming, I’m actually not. I’m one of those people. And I read this the other day that there’s different types of ways that brainstorming helps people. And it kind of comes down to based on the article I read that introverts like to think about stuff on their own, and then come together and share which is 100%. me. But extroverts think while they speak, and would rather brainstorm together in advertising a lot, a lot of the brainstorming and problem solving is in groups and reviews live. And I’m really, really bad at that. I have had I’ve had a cost with vendors. Where we are reviewing work that they have done for me. And some problems come up that someone else notice. And then they look at me for how do we fix this. And I have to come up with something on the spot, and I’m just like, ah, uh, with my, with my microphone muted Of course. And I get really nervous, I know, it’s not gonna be the best answer. Um, and, and it’s bad, like, I am definitely one of those people who need the time, like, I need to take a break when things are not working. I need to, I’m an art director, but I love writing out my ideas more than coming up with visuals for them. And, you know, especially brainstorming with people that makes people really nervous, because then it’s like, oh, we have no visuals for this. But usually when I get stuck, I, I just go someplace else, I completely ignore it. I go on YouTube, or Reddit, I go for a walk, I go get something to eat. Um, I just completely take off. The other thing is that, again, going back to like people that you trust, I have a couple coworkers who I just go and talk to, and bounce off the ideas that I had, in hopes to come up with new stuff. And they’re usually very helpful. And it’s stuff that I don’t normally think of, especially because the way that my team has been structured is that everyone is different in their skills. So there’s an illustrator that I used to work with before who I brought in, there’s me who does a lot of digital in structure design. And then there is a video director who does a lot of moving images and photography. So they’re very different fields, and they they produce work very differently. So whenever we talk about stuff, we do very different concepts. So it helps having people like that around you, because you come up with different things I know. Um, and this might this might make a lot of people angry, but I, I believe that everybody, when they say diversity, everybody focuses too much on on skin and background and race. Um, but what what does it mean when you have physically diverse people, but they all have the same background, they all went to the same expensive schools, they all come from, like the same social background, they all have basically the same resume. And then you’re basically gonna come up with more ideas, but with people with different skin colors. But what what I believe you should really be doing is, you know, bringing people who, who do fit the role, but have very different ways of doing things are different ideas, like my team is very varied. And we purposely built it like that. So that we could help each other. I know if we have a movie need we go to this person, if we have an illustration need I go to this person, they know if they have a digital question, they talk to me and me and it, it it works so much better than some other teams that just have the same type of people and and I think it’s that diversity that really helps. Whenever I feel stuck whenever I feel like I need very specific support on a project because I know that they’re there to help and they’re there to also help me get unstuck.

Zeke:  Right so say much building a team but go to complement each other and not just five stars.

Patrick:  Yeah. And and even then, how do I say it? I think it’s what you said it’s it’s the idea of, of diversity, but in a complementing way, don’t just don’t just do diversity for the sake of diversity and be very specific about like, what sorry, what what the diversity means. Because again, I very much understand that and as somebody who isn’t white, I understand that a white people tend to, you know, get hired more and get a better shot than the non white people. So yeah, definitely try out other people, but also be intimate, even more important, be very specific or, you know, equally as important. Be be very specific over who you hire who you bring in who you work with. Because you want to make sure that you are bringing in the right person that, you know is gonna to your words, compliment the team in more than one sense. Not just because we need a woman, not just because we need a dark skinned person from either Hispanic or African American descent, no, no, bring in somebody because they bring in a skill that your team doesn’t have not just a background that your team doesn’t have.

Zeke:  Yeah, because if you have, like, everybody’s representative, you only have that point of view. And when somebody else comes out, anybody?

Patrick:  Yeah, I mean, you can go to a high school and see all the different kids from different races and different backgrounds, but they’re basically getting the same education, right. So you wanna you want to get people who have different life skills to, you know, help out together. Because if you have a, like, I believe that if you have, if you have the same people bouncing off the same ideas, and that’s the idea of diversity, if you have the same people bouncing off the same ideas, you’re only going to come up with the same things in the end. But if you have other people who don’t necessarily do what you do, will help you out and complement your strengths, and also fill in gaps the team has, you’re gonna come up with stuff that you would have never thought about.

Zeke:  Same thing ever, that’s a bunch of tools also. And then you’re not done.

Patrick:  Yeah, and I get it that it might be scary, hiring people who, who might not 100% fit the mold that you’re trying to fill. And, and I guess from from a recruiting point of view for people who might be applying to jobs, right? When you see a job posting, and they want, like 10 years of experience, proficiency on this, and this and this, that is usually for the ideal candidate, right? The person that they would 100% love hiring, and if they saw him coming in, they would hire them immediately. But usually, that ideal hire is already working somewhere else. If you can fit, like, I think somebody told me if you can fit 60 to 75% of the requirements of like, the very important requirements definitely, definitely apply. into like recruiters, don’t be afraid to hire those people. Because it’s that extra percentage that you have no idea about. As long as you know that they can do their job. It’s that extra stuff that they bring in that definitely helps. You know, add to that workplace diversity.

Zeke: And how do you know you have like a, how do you have confidence in their ability to do your work?

Patrick:  Oh, um, gosh, that, um, I guess in them in my case, because confidence is really hard to, to instill in people just because not everybody has the same levels of, of, like, innate confidence in themselves? Or, or let me turn this off, or, or how do you call it or? Or just or just confidence in general? Um, I think in my case, I have been, I have been very, very lucky that I have worked with people who who believe in me very strongly. That’s why they hired me. I always complain that I get hired by managers who don’t really manage me, they just let me do whatever I want. So there is very little chance for mentoring, but it’s because they know that I’m going to do the job, they know that it’s going to be good. They know that it’s going to be well done. And they don’t really need to quote unquote, baby me. So that has led to a lot of self reliance. And, for better or worse, I don’t always feel the need to go to someone higher up than me and say, Hey, do you approve of this, hey, if this right, unless I feel I’m over my head, which does happen, and I do reach out to people, because I’m still only a couple years out. But I have been, I have been professionally working like that for a while for multiple years. So I feel confident that whenever I say something, it tends to be right. And the other thing is that more than other people I am, I’m very, very, very proud of the work that I do in the sense of like pride, not necessarily like, Oh, I love what I do. Like, I I never want to put out something that feels half assed because at the end of the day, my name is attached to it. And because of that, I have spent a lot of time trying to trying to get the craft, right. Not much with with design, because you know, it’s not my strength, but with reasoning, I want to make sure that everything that goes out is as well thought out as it could be. Um, so I have done a lot of, you know, just practicing and research and reading and everything I can to elevate that craft level. Um, and the second part of that confidence, right is, is having people around you, who believe in you and are confident that you’re going to do the right thing. So when you start a new job, nobody believes in you. Because nobody knows you. Right? They know your portfolio, they know if you’re sounding good on paper, and maybe whoever interviewed you saying good things about you. Um, but you just have to do good work. show people, hey, this person knows what they’re doing. Be confident about the work that you put out, because, one they hired you for a reason to they hired you because you know your stuff. And you know your stuff, because you you know you spend time doing it. And and just take that, that. Like, how do I say this, I as a human being. This is going to come off as weird, but I don’t really believe in me in a bunch of things. But I do believe in my craft, I will stand behind my craft. Any day I will stand behind my reasoning, I will stand behind the way that I do things. Because I know that they are good. So don’t don’t be Don’t be afraid because you don’t believe in you or the way that you deliver something or the way that you wrote something. Or don’t don’t be Don’t, don’t be afraid that they’re not going to like you stand behind your your skill stand behind your craft sign behind your idea. Because then it becomes much easier. And never put out something that you’re not confident in or proud of. Because then it just makes it harder. Not only for you to present something, but then for people to say, Oh, this person is good. Let’s listen. Because if some people just come up with bad ideas, then you know, they lose their confidence. And then it’s also like an issue of like, do you know what’s good? Because it feels like other people just don’t believe in you anymore.

Zeke:  So a common theme about this episode, really having that people around you. That support system.

Patrick:  I would 100% say that I would not be I would not be here without all the people around me. Because to be completely honest, I’m not the I’m not the like I’m hard working but to me a good day is staying in my room playing video games and not talking to anybody. Not the most productive person right? But I’ve had some amazing people around me who have encouraged me to do stuff who have pushed me out of my comfort zone and because I really love those people. And really value their opinion I raised to the occasion and, you know, do things that I wouldn’t normally do. Um, and honestly, if it wasn’t for those people, I don’t, I don’t Yeah, I don’t think I’d be where I am. Because what I want is very different. And it sounds really the best. But I’ve just been, I’ve just been very, very, very lucky.

Zeke:  Nice. Team, work with them. But they said, like I said, the purpose of finding directors and speak to them, we need help.

Patrick:  Yeah. And even even just not professionally, like I mentioned, my mentor. He, he taught me when I was still in college, he was the one who got me into experiences and user experience, design or experiences. And in general, we’ll get some more. And I’ve known him for about five years at this point. And he has been amazing, he has been a source of, you know, inspiration. And just help in general, even on non professional things. Which has been really helpful. Um, actually, the other day, he was yelling at me, because every time I go to a bar, I order a Roman coke. And he said, No, you got to be more professional than that. Get an old fashioned, it shows who you are. And he just started explaining to me what like different drinks meant when you first meet somebody. And, and that is like, basic life advice, but also professional advice. that not everyone is going to give you. But also good to, you know, get it. Um, and you just need to find somebody who’s comfortable enough to tell you that, like my mentor will tell me to eff off. If I’m being like childish and stuff, and he knows that I can take it and he knows that I’m looking for honesty like that. versus being baby. So I think it’s a it’s it’s, like we’ve we’ve been saying all along, it’s finding finding the right people. And, and just sticking to them.

Zeke:  Definitely designing everything for you people who have joy, like so which is over here, designing everything, designer. Um,

Patrick:  So I don’t hate it, I just, I, I don’t, What I don’t like is just making things pretty. Because to me, that, to me, that doesn’t matter. Or it does matter, but it’s not what I focus on. It’s not what I’m great at, I can tell beautiful design, but I’m not necessarily going to be the one to come up with it. Um, I love I love I love. And it’s gonna sound super cheesy. But I love the idea of helping people. Part of the reason why I wanted to design was that I kind of realized, Oh, I can help make information easy, easier based on how you just put stuff together. And part of the reason why I started actually, the reason why I leaned very heavily into user experience in college was that it’s not about how smart you are. If you make something and you give it to someone, and they can’t you use it without you having to explain it. You failed. You messed up. Um, and, and I believe that a lot of design is really smart. Or it likes to think it’s smart. But many designs and many creatives and many people who make things. Don’t always consider other people or the end user in mind. And think, Oh, this is really cool. I’m going to do it because it’s cool. I never think about things like that. I think about who’s going to use it Does this fix the problem that they have? And are they going to understand it? Right? Um, so I guess the thing is that I, I don’t like designing for myself, I don’t know what I want. Christmas comes around and people ask what I want for Christmas, I have no idea. If you tell me what you want, if you tell me that, I don’t know waking up in the morning is hard for you. And you really want to become a morning person, how I’ll come up with something, I don’t know, if it’s gonna be an alarm. I don’t know if it’s gonna be a bed that kicks you off the bed. I don’t know if it’s a recording of your mom yelling at you to wake up every morning. or water falling on your face. I love I love solving those problems that people have. Because to me, to me, design should help people. Some people have said that design should be beautiful, it should be informative, it should help people. And I really lean into the the idea of helping people. With my partner and I have my copywriter partner at work, the one who does all the writing and all that. We believe that what we want to do is help people out in a way that it makes their day a little bit better. That’s that’s all we want to do. And that’s where I have a very big clash with advertising where I don’t I don’t want to sell things to people that they don’t need. Because to me, it just feels morally wrong. And some people will say, Oh, yeah, I mean, but you are giving them the option. And you’re and you’re you’re not cramming it down their throat that they have to buy this Yeah, but you’re still. But is it unconscious, subconsciously trying to get them to get it every time they go to the store? Are you the best option should should Coca Cola be advertising all the time, it’s not really healthy, but you know, they do it and people like it. And that is the stuff that is the type of stuff that Okay, I understand it requires a lot of creativity. Because to your point, a lot of things have been done before, especially in that field. But I just don’t care for it. That that is not the type of work I want to be doing. Um and and to me, it’s it’s just so much more interesting coming up with stuff that you know, helps people because to me, that’s the type of work that people will be looking at. Like when you can help somebody feel better when you can help somebody do something they weren’t able to do before. That is a much more interesting story, then. Oh, look a branded something cool. So what you’ll forget about it next week. If you can help somebody do something, they’ll remember it for the rest of their lives.

Zeke:  The user experience that you really like, on and off. Advertising gives you the basis that people always ahead idea like, like me, like as a merchant is annoying, but I’m in fact, I’m also part of the field sometimes. Some just like it’s kind of their own, like just residually. And part of the problem. But there’s also that, yeah, like people say you’re not calling people like, you’re not meant for the Pentagon to their face, I say by the need to say yeah, it’s up to you.

Patrick:  Yeah, and you’re still you’re still pushing out so much advertising that to them. It’s the only choice. Yeah, or it’s not necessarily the only choice but it’s the comfortable choice because they know it they hear about it. And it’s that is that right? I don’t think so. Sure people still have a choice but I don’t know that’s that that to me. Again, this is work I don’t ever want to be doing

Zeke:  Is like how much of the choices if it seemed like it’s the only choice in Do you have like society telling people to do things? Yeah, they all working together. Hey, keep buying more and more.

Patrick:  Yeah, so As my little that’s my little grip with advertising, I think they have a chance to do a lot. There’s a lot of money in advertising. And I think it just gets all spent way too much in entertainment versus bettering the world. As a as a, as pretentious as it may sound. I do believe that designers have a chance to, you know, make things better for people. But that doesn’t necessarily sound as fancy as, as awards or are you know, doing something cool, because it’s cool. But hey, different people.

Zeke:  Yeah. almost an hour, so we could do longer than we done.

Patrick:  Well, if you have anything else to ask, let me know. Otherwise, I feel I feel this has been pretty cool.

Zeke:  Yeah, I think we get it on here. Nice. We’ll chat in another good note of wanting to help.

Patrick:  Well, if I can actually wanted to ask you. Um, yeah. How did you? How did you start the podcast? And like, how do you? How did you decide to start? What may you start? And how do you run it? How do you plan for it? How do you do all that stuff? That worker, my partner and I have been thinking about starting one. But there’s so many out there that we don’t know why we would do it or how we would do it or even Where to start? And I just find it so fascinating that you’re just doing it?

Zeke:  Yeah. So after I graduate college, and we have a job afterwards, and I was like, I don’t know what to do. And I was like, okay, and there was other people I know. And there was like, they were doing well. Life. You know, they okay. And I’m also good at other people. I know a lot of people. So I was like, I can find guests easily. Because there’s a lot of people I’ve met. And I was like, let me start podcasting. Just try it. And had I there in like August 2019. And then by December 2019, I started recording, and they released in January. But this is edited according to each and everything. And I was like companies what happened was the podcast either is amazing. In like the best case scenario, or it goes okay. And then somebody sees it, and they want to buy it and then negative by the name. Or somebody sees the work I’m doing or the hire me to do similar work. Or if it goes terrible, but I’ve learned something from it. And I could take things I want from it and put into a better project. into the way I run it is definitely learning as I go. Because it’s like things I do, like I did I use a lot of things came up I get in Australia, it does like even like the editing part and like, just processing in general. And I was praying, I was like I knew that I couldn’t do for the two weeks a year because that’s like the segment of marathon without taking a break. And that’s okay, the seasons, I was like, Okay, I could just do these, these 10 real quick. And then Have you seen it and while doing that just prepare, it gives me time to prepare for anything that may happen. And right now there’s more of this, leveling it up, and seeing where they go next.

Patrick:  That’s awesome. I really admire the fact that you’re just honestly doing it. Um, I think we it was telling you that there’s a lot of planning whenever we do projects, and sometimes that planning gets to your head, and you never actually make it. And it’s it’s like the moment that you you actually do something like you are and just getting the experience from actually trying it out is what user experience is about just like getting something out there and getting feedback from people and seeing how it goes. So I will say I, I incredibly admire what you’re doing and the fact that you’re just add it and learning from it and talking to a lot of people that is that’s amazing. And keep doing it dude, that’s that’s so cool.

Zeke:  Thanks. And in terms of the starting podcast, I’m making a PDF, a web page for it to allow people to actually know that it’s better just to make a (inaudible) of remember everything times is like okay, here’s a document is the full name and they ask more questions.

Patrick:  Yeah. Cool, dude.

Zeke:  All right, before we end, the last question is what would you name your origin story?

Patrick:  My origin story. I’d probably go back to the thing I told you for a series of fortunate events. Also because I love a series of unfortunate events. That was that that was a fantastic series. I loved it.

Zeke:  Well, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Patrick:  Go off. Thank you so much for having me.

Zeke:  On today, you do

Patrick:  Take care

Zeke: That brings another episode of Let’s Gather Podcast to a close. Again. I’ll like to thank Patrick for  bringing guests on the podcast. For next week. I have the hosts of the podcast Room 3228. I hope you continue to have a nice day and I hope to see you there.

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